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Sunday, 10 October 2010 - AUSTRALIA.TO NEWS
LO: Minister, welcome to the program. CB: Thanks Laurie, good morning. LO: Before we go on to immigration, Tony Abbott has just flown out of Afghanistan where he has been visiting our troops, is the government pleased that he made the trip?
CB: Oh, absolutely. I think everybody would will welcome the fact that Tony has been to Afghanistan, I think the troops will welcome that and I think that is perfectly appropriate, so that’s a welcome thing.
LO: Do you agree that going on his own he would have had more time with the troops and more chance to talk with them that he would have if he just tailed after the Prime Minister?
CB: Oh look, not necessarily. I think the Prime Minister invited him to go with her as a sign of bipartisan ship. That didn’t work from his point of view, that’s fine. I think he would have had full access if he was there with the Prime Minister but equally now that he has gone by himself that’s perfectly appropriate as well.
LO: I understand that Mr Abbott actually asked if he could be embedded with the troops, and spend some days with them so he could go on a mission with them in the way some journalists do, would have been a good idea?
CB: Well I’m not aware if that’s the case or not Laurie. He wouldn’t expect me necessarily to know about that. If he wanted to do that I’m sure the appropriate considerations would be those of security for the troops and for him, and that would be a matter that the government would take advise from the Defence forces on but I’m not aware of the details of that particular report.
LO: In fact Defence said no and Tony Abbott I gather accepts the reasons for that , I mean you don’t put the alternative Prime Minister in harms way I guess, but it is typical of Abbott that he wanted to it, Abbott the action man?
CB: Well look that’s really a matter for him. I could understand the reasons why you would want to see the operations in Afghanistan as closely as possibly. I would understand that. Also I think as I said before we would understand the reasons of the defence forces in protecting both his personal security and the personal security of the troops.
LO: Now you are heading off tomorrow for East Timor, Indonesia and Malaysia.
CB: Yes.
LO: Now is this a genuine serious attempt to get a regional asylum seeker processing centre of the ground?
CB: Absolutely, and it is about more than just the regional processing centre it is about an entire regional framework. We have a regional and international problem which needs a regional and international solution. What we need to do is to develop a regional framework in a similar way that one was developed in response to the Vietnamese humanitarian crisis in the 70s and 80s, similar way than what has been done in Latin America more recently and even in Africa. A sensible and proper regional framework which deals with what is essentially a regional issue with almost four million refugees in the Asia Pacific region. It make sense for all of us, all of our regional neighbours to work together in reaching a solution to what is essentially an international and regional problem.
LO: Why are you making the trip and not the foreign minister?
CB: Well because I’m the immigration minister and this is an immigration matter Laurie, and the Prime Minister has given me carriage of processing the regional framework for immigration, as immigration minister. Kevin Rudd and I have been in regular contact about it, he has also raised the matter with his contemporaries on his international visits and he is providing me every possible assistance but it is appropriate that the immigration minister have primary carriage of what is primarily an immigration matter.
LO: And what is Kevin Rudd’s view of the idea of a processing centre in East Timor?
CB: He supports it, he supports it because it would be in line with UNHCR principles. It would be developed in very close consultation with the UNHCR and the International Organisation for Migration. So he supports it because he recognises that it would be the best way forward in dealing with what is a regional problem.
LO: And what signals are you getting from East Timor, now, are the people in Dilli more favourably disposed to this idea than they were when Julia Gillard first put it forward?
CB: Well look we’ve had some encouraging feedback. Obviously it is a big issue for East Timor. It would be a very significant development for them and they obviously have issues they want to work through. But certainly President Horte and Prime Minister Gusmao have indicated they are very interested in talking it through, very interested in talking through those issues and certainly that is what I will be doing when I leave tomorrow.
LO: Now if East Timor doesn’t want this thing dumped on its soil, have you got other locations in mind?
CB: Well certainly East Timor has been our focus. And I wouldn’t obviously accept your characterisation of it being dumped on East Timor soil. I think it is something which could have very much work for East Timor’s benefit as well as for Australia’s and the regions. Certainly East Timor has been our focus but I will be visiting a number of countries on this trip and an number of countries as this develops, and we will be talking about all the options with all the countries in our region that are signatories to the refugee convention.
LO: Now you talk about a regional framework and a regional processing centre, but this is not a regional issue is it? The vast majority of asylum seekers who lob here are from Afghanistan which is no where near the region.
CB: Yes but they come through the region Laurie. They come through Indonesia ..
LO: They come through the region because they want to come here. We are the regional problem aren’t we?
CB: Well no I wouldn’t put it that way Laurie. Of course when you have got a very high number of refugees around the world, 42 million displaced people around the world, they are going to go to the developed countries that are signatories to the refugee convention. They are going to go to Canada, they are going to go to Europe, they are going to go to America and yes, they will seek to come to Australia as well. So of course in that regard we will always be attractive because we are a developed country who are signatories to the refugee convention. That is always going to be the case. But what you do need is a regional framework because the trafficking goes through our region, goes through Malaysia, goes through Indonesia and goes through a number of countries on the way to Australia and us dealing with it domestically can only do so much. You need a regional solution to this. It needs to be done in a developed way. It is much more effective than stunts and sound grabs about turning boats back and boat phones and things which won’t actually have any impact, the thing which will have an impact …
LO: But it is still exporting our problem to some other country isn’t it?
CB: No, I don’t think so Laurie. And I don’t think the other countries see it that way either. I think they see a regional solution as being in their best interests as well. That is why the Bali process was set up for example. Recognising that these issues are best tackled at a regional level and this is taking the Bali process one step further.
LO: Well over the weekend we had four boat loads of asylum seekers arrive within 48 hours. Where are you going to put all of these people?
CB; Well Laurie we do have significant strains in our detention centres, I’ve been very clear about that since I became immigration minister. I’ve announced some short term measures to deal with that. I’ll also be announcing some longer measures in the not too distant future to deal with those pressures on our detention system. Those pressures don’t just come I should say, from boat arrivals, they also come from a number of other factors. That come from the fact that our rejection levels have increased for example. As you understand Laurie when somebody is accepted for asylum it is a fairly simple process to then move them into the community. But when a claim is rejected you then go through a process where they can have an independent merits review, we have then got to seek to return them to the country from whence they came. We have return agreements with some countries, we don’t have one for example with Afghanistan, which we are working on. So that has also lead to pressure, there is a high court challenge which means that some people have not been repatriated as yet, so there is a number of things which have led to those pressures, and I’m dealing with those pressures through a long term plan which I will be saying more about over coming weeks.
LO: Your predecessor Chris Evans, said that his greatest failure as Minister was failing to control the immigration debate, how are you going to try and control it?
CB: Well I will engage in a sensible and mature discussion, I won’t engage in sound grabs, I won’t engage in cheap policy, I won’t engage in stunts like boat phones and sound grabs like turning boats back. I will engage improper policy development, with the regional focus as its core and I will talk to people about the issues about the international issues, about the movement of people, the fact that we have historically high levels of movement of peoples around the world, in an irregular manner. What I won’t be doing is engaging in a race to the bottom of stunts and sound grabs which Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison seem to be intent on doing.
LO: I guess that will be a change from the Labor election campaign but can I ask you, do you believe in a big Australia?
CB: Well look Laurie, I think what is important is that we have a sustainable population. I think our immigration program for example is very important in the skills debate. It is very important in terms of dealing with the ageing of our population, and we need to strike that balance. But I think what Australians are rightfully want is to be re-assured there is proper planning in place for infrastructure, that there is proper planning in place in relation to the impact on our environment and that is what Tony Burke, the Population Minister and I will be working closely on, in relation to the population strategy.
LO: But Julia Gillard, before the election said that we mustn't rush forward to a population of 36 million. How are you going to stop that?
CB: Well I don't think Julia Gillard said that we shouldn't have necessarily any particular population targets. She said essentially what I've just said, there is the Australian people …
LO: Well she is having a whack at Kevin Rudd, who talked about a big Australia in the light of projections of 36 million by 2050. But specifically, what she was talking about, so presumably, she doesn't want 36 million by 2050.
CB: Well by saying we shouldn't be hurtling towards a particular number, she was saying we need to have the proper processes in place. We need a population strategy for the first time, we have never had one before Laurie. That’s Tony Burke's job to get the population strategy up and running for the first time, which will deal with the issues of sustainability, of infrastructure, of where people live. It is not just about the total number of the Australian population. It is about the spread of the population throughout the region.
LO: Well when you talk about a big Australia, you are talking specifically about population. You said you weren’t going to engage in this obfuscation, you are doing it quite effectively.
CB: Well Laurie I don't necessarily, I don’t obviously agree with that. What we are doing is engaging in a discussion about a strategy, about a population strategy for the first time in Australia's history. I mean we have groan exponentially over a hundred years but we have never actually had a proper population strategy where we have talked to people about the needs for our population, we talk to people about our skills needs, about the needs of an ageing population to keep our population growing. But, at the same time, talked about what sort of things that entails in terms of demands on infrastructure and demands on the environment. And that is perfectly appropriate.
LO: Are you going to cut immigration?
CB: Well, Laurie, we set our immigration targets on an annual basis, around budget time, and that’s what I will be doing, I will be going through all the evidence about what our needs are in relation to skills, what our needs are in relation to the economy and what our humanitarian situation is around the world. And I will be doing that in the normal methodical way that that occurs. I certainly won't be engaging in speculation about what that immigration rate will be before engaging in that process. But what we...
LO: When Julia Gillard said we shouldn't be hurtling towards a population of 36 million, she then said we need to stop, take a breath. So what are you going to stop?
CB: Well, Laurie, when she said that, she was talking about that planning. She was talking about the infrastructure needs and the environmental needs. What we have done in the immigration space, and this is due to my predecessor, the good work that he did, was make sure that our immigration needs are being driven by immigration. He has taken steps to ensure that our net overseas migration level is sustainably, for example, by dealing with the temporary visas, for education purposes, for example, and making sure that the balance right is there. Now I’ve got more work to do there. But we have taken steps there, and my predecessor did do good work there.
LO: We thank you, Minister.
CB: Nice talking to you, Laurie.
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Sunday, 10 October 2010 - AUSTRALIA.TO NEWS
LO: Minister, welcome to the program. CB: Thanks Laurie, good morning. LO: Before we go on to immigration, Tony Abbott has just flown out of Afghanistan where he has been visiting our troops, is the government pleased that he made the trip?
CB: Oh, absolutely. I think everybody would will welcome the fact that Tony has been to Afghanistan, I think the troops will welcome that and I think that is perfectly appropriate, so that’s a welcome thing.
LO: Do you agree that going on his own he would have had more time with the troops and more chance to talk with them that he would have if he just tailed after the Prime Minister?
CB: Oh look, not necessarily. I think the Prime Minister invited him to go with her as a sign of bipartisan ship. That didn’t work from his point of view, that’s fine. I think he would have had full access if he was there with the Prime Minister but equally now that he has gone by himself that’s perfectly appropriate as well.
LO: I understand that Mr Abbott actually asked if he could be embedded with the troops, and spend some days with them so he could go on a mission with them in the way some journalists do, would have been a good idea?
CB: Well I’m not aware if that’s the case or not Laurie. He wouldn’t expect me necessarily to know about that. If he wanted to do that I’m sure the appropriate considerations would be those of security for the troops and for him, and that would be a matter that the government would take advise from the Defence forces on but I’m not aware of the details of that particular report.
LO: In fact Defence said no and Tony Abbott I gather accepts the reasons for that , I mean you don’t put the alternative Prime Minister in harms way I guess, but it is typical of Abbott that he wanted to it, Abbott the action man?
CB: Well look that’s really a matter for him. I could understand the reasons why you would want to see the operations in Afghanistan as closely as possibly. I would understand that. Also I think as I said before we would understand the reasons of the defence forces in protecting both his personal security and the personal security of the troops.
LO: Now you are heading off tomorrow for East Timor, Indonesia and Malaysia.
CB: Yes.
LO: Now is this a genuine serious attempt to get a regional asylum seeker processing centre of the ground?
CB: Absolutely, and it is about more than just the regional processing centre it is about an entire regional framework. We have a regional and international problem which needs a regional and international solution. What we need to do is to develop a regional framework in a similar way that one was developed in response to the Vietnamese humanitarian crisis in the 70s and 80s, similar way than what has been done in Latin America more recently and even in Africa. A sensible and proper regional framework which deals with what is essentially a regional issue with almost four million refugees in the Asia Pacific region. It make sense for all of us, all of our regional neighbours to work together in reaching a solution to what is essentially an international and regional problem.
LO: Why are you making the trip and not the foreign minister?
CB: Well because I’m the immigration minister and this is an immigration matter Laurie, and the Prime Minister has given me carriage of processing the regional framework for immigration, as immigration minister. Kevin Rudd and I have been in regular contact about it, he has also raised the matter with his contemporaries on his international visits and he is providing me every possible assistance but it is appropriate that the immigration minister have primary carriage of what is primarily an immigration matter.
LO: And what is Kevin Rudd’s view of the idea of a processing centre in East Timor?
CB: He supports it, he supports it because it would be in line with UNHCR principles. It would be developed in very close consultation with the UNHCR and the International Organisation for Migration. So he supports it because he recognises that it would be the best way forward in dealing with what is a regional problem.
LO: And what signals are you getting from East Timor, now, are the people in Dilli more favourably disposed to this idea than they were when Julia Gillard first put it forward?
CB: Well look we’ve had some encouraging feedback. Obviously it is a big issue for East Timor. It would be a very significant development for them and they obviously have issues they want to work through. But certainly President Horte and Prime Minister Gusmao have indicated they are very interested in talking it through, very interested in talking through those issues and certainly that is what I will be doing when I leave tomorrow.
LO: Now if East Timor doesn’t want this thing dumped on its soil, have you got other locations in mind?
CB: Well certainly East Timor has been our focus. And I wouldn’t obviously accept your characterisation of it being dumped on East Timor soil. I think it is something which could have very much work for East Timor’s benefit as well as for Australia’s and the regions. Certainly East Timor has been our focus but I will be visiting a number of countries on this trip and an number of countries as this develops, and we will be talking about all the options with all the countries in our region that are signatories to the refugee convention.
LO: Now you talk about a regional framework and a regional processing centre, but this is not a regional issue is it? The vast majority of asylum seekers who lob here are from Afghanistan which is no where near the region.
CB: Yes but they come through the region Laurie. They come through Indonesia ..
LO: They come through the region because they want to come here. We are the regional problem aren’t we?
CB: Well no I wouldn’t put it that way Laurie. Of course when you have got a very high number of refugees around the world, 42 million displaced people around the world, they are going to go to the developed countries that are signatories to the refugee convention. They are going to go to Canada, they are going to go to Europe, they are going to go to America and yes, they will seek to come to Australia as well. So of course in that regard we will always be attractive because we are a developed country who are signatories to the refugee convention. That is always going to be the case. But what you do need is a regional framework because the trafficking goes through our region, goes through Malaysia, goes through Indonesia and goes through a number of countries on the way to Australia and us dealing with it domestically can only do so much. You need a regional solution to this. It needs to be done in a developed way. It is much more effective than stunts and sound grabs about turning boats back and boat phones and things which won’t actually have any impact, the thing which will have an impact …
LO: But it is still exporting our problem to some other country isn’t it?
CB: No, I don’t think so Laurie. And I don’t think the other countries see it that way either. I think they see a regional solution as being in their best interests as well. That is why the Bali process was set up for example. Recognising that these issues are best tackled at a regional level and this is taking the Bali process one step further.
LO: Well over the weekend we had four boat loads of asylum seekers arrive within 48 hours. Where are you going to put all of these people?
CB; Well Laurie we do have significant strains in our detention centres, I’ve been very clear about that since I became immigration minister. I’ve announced some short term measures to deal with that. I’ll also be announcing some longer measures in the not too distant future to deal with those pressures on our detention system. Those pressures don’t just come I should say, from boat arrivals, they also come from a number of other factors. That come from the fact that our rejection levels have increased for example. As you understand Laurie when somebody is accepted for asylum it is a fairly simple process to then move them into the community. But when a claim is rejected you then go through a process where they can have an independent merits review, we have then got to seek to return them to the country from whence they came. We have return agreements with some countries, we don’t have one for example with Afghanistan, which we are working on. So that has also lead to pressure, there is a high court challenge which means that some people have not been repatriated as yet, so there is a number of things which have led to those pressures, and I’m dealing with those pressures through a long term plan which I will be saying more about over coming weeks.
LO: Your predecessor Chris Evans, said that his greatest failure as Minister was failing to control the immigration debate, how are you going to try and control it?
CB: Well I will engage in a sensible and mature discussion, I won’t engage in sound grabs, I won’t engage in cheap policy, I won’t engage in stunts like boat phones and sound grabs like turning boats back. I will engage improper policy development, with the regional focus as its core and I will talk to people about the issues about the international issues, about the movement of people, the fact that we have historically high levels of movement of peoples around the world, in an irregular manner. What I won’t be doing is engaging in a race to the bottom of stunts and sound grabs which Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison seem to be intent on doing.
LO: I guess that will be a change from the Labor election campaign but can I ask you, do you believe in a big Australia?
CB: Well look Laurie, I think what is important is that we have a sustainable population. I think our immigration program for example is very important in the skills debate. It is very important in terms of dealing with the ageing of our population, and we need to strike that balance. But I think what Australians are rightfully want is to be re-assured there is proper planning in place for infrastructure, that there is proper planning in place in relation to the impact on our environment and that is what Tony Burke, the Population Minister and I will be working closely on, in relation to the population strategy.
LO: But Julia Gillard, before the election said that we mustn't rush forward to a population of 36 million. How are you going to stop that?
CB: Well I don't think Julia Gillard said that we shouldn't have necessarily any particular population targets. She said essentially what I've just said, there is the Australian people …
LO: Well she is having a whack at Kevin Rudd, who talked about a big Australia in the light of projections of 36 million by 2050. But specifically, what she was talking about, so presumably, she doesn't want 36 million by 2050.
CB: Well by saying we shouldn't be hurtling towards a particular number, she was saying we need to have the proper processes in place. We need a population strategy for the first time, we have never had one before Laurie. That’s Tony Burke's job to get the population strategy up and running for the first time, which will deal with the issues of sustainability, of infrastructure, of where people live. It is not just about the total number of the Australian population. It is about the spread of the population throughout the region.
LO: Well when you talk about a big Australia, you are talking specifically about population. You said you weren’t going to engage in this obfuscation, you are doing it quite effectively.
CB: Well Laurie I don't necessarily, I don’t obviously agree with that. What we are doing is engaging in a discussion about a strategy, about a population strategy for the first time in Australia's history. I mean we have groan exponentially over a hundred years but we have never actually had a proper population strategy where we have talked to people about the needs for our population, we talk to people about our skills needs, about the needs of an ageing population to keep our population growing. But, at the same time, talked about what sort of things that entails in terms of demands on infrastructure and demands on the environment. And that is perfectly appropriate.
LO: Are you going to cut immigration?
CB: Well, Laurie, we set our immigration targets on an annual basis, around budget time, and that’s what I will be doing, I will be going through all the evidence about what our needs are in relation to skills, what our needs are in relation to the economy and what our humanitarian situation is around the world. And I will be doing that in the normal methodical way that that occurs. I certainly won't be engaging in speculation about what that immigration rate will be before engaging in that process. But what we...
LO: When Julia Gillard said we shouldn't be hurtling towards a population of 36 million, she then said we need to stop, take a breath. So what are you going to stop?
CB: Well, Laurie, when she said that, she was talking about that planning. She was talking about the infrastructure needs and the environmental needs. What we have done in the immigration space, and this is due to my predecessor, the good work that he did, was make sure that our immigration needs are being driven by immigration. He has taken steps to ensure that our net overseas migration level is sustainably, for example, by dealing with the temporary visas, for education purposes, for example, and making sure that the balance right is there. Now I’ve got more work to do there. But we have taken steps there, and my predecessor did do good work there.
LO: We thank you, Minister.
CB: Nice talking to you, Laurie.
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